Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hey there, everyone. It's Brittany, the Remote mom. And we're back for another episode of the Remote Mom Collective podcast. Today, I'm here with Allie Kushner. Hey, Ali, how you doing?
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Hi. Doing well. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: You're welcome. Thank you for joining today, guys. We're going to be talking about returning to work after maternity leave and that it's okay to want to go back to work. And we're going to talk about that story of, you know, how maternity leave can be different and. And being a new mom can be different for everyone. And it's not always sunshine and rainbows experience.
It's uniquely challenging. So Allie is going to share her powerful story about going back to work after a C section and confronting postpartum depression. And I'm really intrigued, and I really related to you, Ali. Actually, let me. Let me back up. I'm going to tell the listeners how we actually connected. So Allie and I are both in a group called Working Moms, and so we connected that way. And then usually in Working Moms, everybody follows each other on LinkedIn, and so Allie and I recently connected on LinkedIn, and she posted something, what, last week or the week before? I think it was just last week, right?
[00:01:17] Speaker B: I think it was last week. Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: And you posted something so vulnerable. And so, I don't know, I was just so impressed by the way that you just put it out there. And I really. It connected with me because I had a similar experience. I had a C section. I went through postpartum depression. I was so ready to go back to work. It was insane. And everybody thought that I was crazy for wanting to go back to work. And so it felt really.
It felt really great to see somebody else who had that. A similar experience, because I really haven't run across a lot of people who had kind of that same yearning to go back to work, to feel kind of normal again. Right.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: So thank you for saying that. And so I reached out to Allie and I said, hey, can we. Can we do a podcast together? Because I feel like this is something that there's more than just the two of us that are feeling this.
And so I'd love for you to just share your. Your story, just give us a real recap of what you posted, and just tell me about what happened, about how you got and. And why you wanted to post that, and. And we'll just start from there.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: Sure. So that's a heavy, heavy question. So I'll give you the. The super high level. So I'm the a mom of two, I have a just over two year old and a now eight month old, which I can't believe. And every pregnancy story is different. You never know how you're going to react to becoming a mom. You're becoming a mom for the first time, a mom for the second time. It's still a new experience, right? And I had a really rough pregnancy both times around.
It was a miracle and it was joyous and all of those things, but it was also super hard. And in those months leading up to giving birth, I felt like in some ways I was losing myself. Yes, I was gaining this new family and I was super excited about that. But at the same time I wasn't recognizing myself day to day that, you know, I was super exhausted. I physically wasn't recognizing myself when I was looking in the mirror. My, my desires to work out had changed everything and I gave birth and that was super hard. I had a semi emergency C section in the fact that the doctor said, hey, you can have a C section now or in about 10 minutes it's going to be an emergency. So you choose. That was an awesome choice.
Had the C section section. Beautiful, healthy baby girl. Really rough recovery from a C section. It is major abdominal surgery. You're learning to become a parent again. Whether you're doing it for the first time, the second or the third time, it's. It's a different kid, it's a different experience, it's a different you. And it was so overwhelming. It was learning to be a mom, it was learning to be in my body again. And I was really just craving at the end of that a sense of my old life. And they say, and the collective, whoever the wisdom of they are, that you don't get your old life back, it's a new life, you're constantly moving forward. And that's totally true. But in, in exploring my new identity as a parent, as a mom, I also wanted to be able to connect with who I had always been, which was a very driven career professional that I, I found and I still find joy in working, in advancing projects. And that's my part of my, my unique identity. And for everyone that looks very different. And I almost felt like it was ripped away from me in many ways. During my first trimester, I was exhausted and I wasn't able to volunteer for all the projects at work that I wanted to because I was just so tired. And then after I gave birth, I, I felt this little surge of energy. And yes, it was coupled with postpartum depression. Which I wasn't aware of at the time, but it was very much just this yearning to have a taste of my. My old life, or maybe not my old life, but to be able to reclaim my identity as an individual and not let this idea that I'm now a mother completely take over. I wanted my identity as a mother to merge with who I was, not to completely erase it, if that makes sense.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Yes, it absolutely makes sense, because I. I went through the same thing. And I don't know if you experienced this too, but when I was pregnant, so my husband and I were married for seven years. I was 33 when I had my daughter, and she's nine now. And we were at the point where we were like, if we're going to do this, let's just go ahead and do it now. Right?
[00:06:01] Speaker B: You're never ready.
[00:06:02] Speaker A: You're never ready. Never ready, no matter what age you are. And so I actually had depression while I was pregnant because I knew you did. Okay. Because you knew what?
[00:06:12] Speaker B: I didn't know it. Yeah, I didn't know it was depression. I just thought, oh, this is being pregnant. This is, you know, this is what it's supposed to be. But again, there's no it's supposed to be. It's. It's all a roller coaster.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: It is, but it's so hard to be compared, you know, when you have peers that are going through that with you and they are just loving, loving life, and they are so excited. And I'm like, what do you mean? This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I feel terrible all the time.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: So do you remember that movie or did you ever see that movie? What to expect when you're expecting?
[00:06:47] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:06:48] Speaker B: And there's a character who has, like, the glow.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: I did not have the glow. I had the, like, very, very swollen ankles. I waddled to the mailbox. I was super uncomfortable. I live in New York City, so. Oh, gosh, it was like the summer heat, summer pregnancy. I just.
I felt like I was almost outside of my body looking at myself, being like, who is this person? What a lovely, like, experience to be able to have. And I'm so grateful for it. But at the same time, it is so jarring that it's not what you don't say, okay, this is going to be my pregnancy journey. And then, same thing, like with college, for example. You don't go into college saying, oh, yeah, this is going to be my major. And four years later, how many people are still graduating with the same major? And the same career path. No, you learn about yourself, and life's experiences change you. And pregnancy, in some ways, is that exact same thing. That, okay, you want to have a kid, great, but you don't check off the boxes. This is what I want my pregnancy journey to look like. I mean, I wish, but that. That's not the case.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Right. In reality, it doesn't happen that way. It would be nice if we could make it, but. Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Let me know if you figure it out, because.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: Right.
So now you have two kiddos, you have two children. Okay. And so.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: And I wake up every morning and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm a mom. Like, it's still like, I'm not ready. So just to be very clear on that, like, when you said earlier that you just, like, you're like, you're at that inflection point where you're like, okay, if we're gonna have kids, we do it now.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: I wake up, I'm like, am I. Am I ready to have kids? Oh, wait, I have two way.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Been there, done that. We can't go back in time or go forward. Yeah, I get that. Well, I only have one because, like, we're.
[00:08:34] Speaker B: We're.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: We're one and done, but we're, you know, we're happy with that. It's totally. She's a wonderful kid. We love it. But part of a little sliver of that was because of my experience that I went through when I was pregnant. And I was like, I just am not interested in doing that again. And I'm not interested in losing who I was again because I feel it'll be a repeat of that. So did you experience that with both pregnancies, or was that just your first or.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah, again, very, very different pregnancies. And for my first pregnancy, I had perinatal depression during the pregnancy, did not know it.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: Had very strong baby blues. After I gave birth that very slowly or creepily turned into postpartum depression. And I was dealing with postpartum depression, I think, like nine months until nine months after my first daughter was born.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: And then once I started feeling better, and I'm an only child, so my. My husband and I always wanted to have a larger family. And once I was starting to feel better after that haze from postpartum depression, my husband was like, are we interested in other having a kid? I was like, are we interested? Okay. We finally made the decision, got pregnant very quickly, and you never know how it's going to happen. Um, and for us, we were very, very fortunate. Pregnant super quickly. And then by the end of that first trimester, I was hit super hard with perinatal depression again. And that time, my husband and I knew what to look for. Like, we knew the questions to ask every day. He was saying, so how are you feeling on a scale of 1 to 10, not just physically, but mentally. And I was able to get the help that I needed much sooner. So even though I struggled with the perinatal depression, once I gave birth, I didn't have the same PPD during the first time.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Okay, but so you did get help then you actually, like, spoke to a doctor and were able to get help both times? Both times. Okay, good, because that was not something that I did.
I gave birth at a military hospital. And, you know, it's very different. My husband was active duty for 20 years. It's very different. So.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: So my doctors actually, like, I had fantastic obese, don't get me wrong. But they, you know, once they. They bring the baby into the world, their. Their job is kind of done, and they ask you the questions on your follow up. They go through their checklist, how are you feeling? But when I forgot the name of the test that they give you that, you know, how are you mentally feeling, essentially? And I didn't score well on any of them. Like, it was the worst grade I'd ever gotten in my life. And the doctor said, no, you might want to consider talking to a professional. That was kind of as far as it went. And for quite a long time, my husband and I were just like, oh, it's baby blues, and that's normal. And because it was our. Both of our first experiences with kids. My eldest is the first of her generation in our family. No one, like, none of our friends had. Had kids really, or at least friends that we were in physical proximity to. It took a while to recognize what was happening. And it was actually my daughter's pediatrician, I think, who said something to my husband and was like, hey, this. This isn't just baby blues, okay? And that kind of spurred. And I was in. Ultimately, I wound up going into an intensive outpatient program for. For postpartum depression.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay. So for somebody who might be going through this right now, what.
I think part of why I didn't speak up is because I didn't know and I was scared. And I'm not somebody who freely talks about my feelings. So for me, it's. I probably would have answered. I don't really remember those tests to be Honest with you. I remember them asking questions like, are you doing okay? And of course I was like, oh, yeah, 10. Whatever. Like, just get me out of this stupid doctor's office. I just want to be out of here. Right? So for somebody who really needs help, and I think I blocked this out because I don't remember what is. What is the. I mean, clearly your partner, I think your husband played a huge part in that, right? So he helped you recognize those. Those signs and helped you get help. If somebody's doctor or if somebody doesn't have a partner who can help recognize those things, or maybe their partner just isn't around. Like, maybe they work. My husband was deployed a lot, so he wasn't home a lot.
What. Where should they go? What. What do you recommend? Like, do you. Is there. Do they go to their doctor and say, I don't feel well? Or is that. Or is there a program online or have you. Do you know anything of any resources that people can to.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: So I love this question. And the first thing that I would say is that I think the statistic is 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 birthing parents are impacted by a PED, which is a perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. And postpartum depression is one. One potential outcome of that or one potential manifestation of that, I should say. And it's completely normal. It feels horrible, as I don't have to tell you. And if you don't feel quote unquote, like yourself, and I know you're a different person after you give birth, but if you wake up and you're just miserable, if you. It's not just being tired. It's like you really. You're having this experience where you. You think something's off, even just a little smidge off, it's worth having the conversation with the medical provider.
You're doing your, yourself a disservice by not taking care of yourself. I know we all, or many of us have the tendency to be embarrassed, to feel like we're out of control, to feel like, oh, no, that's, you know, not me. I can soldier on through and just again, get me out of this doctor's appointment. But in becoming a parent, your. Your mental health, your physical health, those are things that you're doing not just for yourself anymore, but you're also doing for your kids.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: Taking care of those things for your children. So that's the first thing that I would say.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: After that, I live in again in New York City. I received amazing treatment at the Motherhood center. Of New York, which has an intensive outpatient program. They also do a virtual program which I believe is specifically based on the geographies. From a medical standpoint, they're only allowed to treat people in certain states. But I know there are other treatment programs. There are other therapists and psychiatrists who specifically deal with peds. So the first thing I would say is talking to your OB because you're going through those checkups just to raise the flag and say, hey, something feels off. Most of them, even if they're not familiar with the treatment, they have, you know, Rolodex. Can I make that reference? Like they, they, they have it in their contacts. Somebody that they can refer you to, to have a conversation, call your insurance. What are your benefits for therapy? What are your benefits for a psychiatrist doing a Google search for PMAT or postpartum depression? Plus your state will come up with resources.
Finding someone obviously in network, I'm sure for many people is preferable. And financial considerations are important for everyone. Being able to understand what you're in network, out of network. Benefits are support groups. It's not necessarily just about one on one treatment. But for some people it might just be about being around a group of new parents to talk.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: And having that camaraderie that comes along with it. So it's not, I don't want anyone to get terrified by being like, oh, this woman went into an intensive outpatient program. Like, I don't want to do that. Not going to touch this with a 10 foot pole. That was my story. Very unique to me. Other people may just need someone to talk to once a week to vent. I'm not sleeping, I'm not, you know, I don't feel connected to my child. I regret having a child, whatever it is, to be able to name those feelings. For others, it might be a support group. There are so many different forms of treatment. But the first line of defense is saying to someone, if you have a partner, I say the first step is your partner, their partner for a reason. Calling it out that, you know, there's something doesn't feel right here.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yes, great. Great advice there.
Something that really kind of hit close to home for me is when you said, you know, I don't know that I, if I wanted to be a mom or wanted, you know, where, where you're having those thoughts and that's totally normal. And I think a lot of people don't vocalize that and they don't realize that or you're not connecting that Was something for me was really hard. I didn't connect with my daughter immediately, and I felt like something's wrong with me. Is this why I want to go back to work so fast? Because I don't have that connection with her. And I felt like going back to work kind of helped me feel like me again.
And I don't know if maybe that was your story too. I don't know if maybe going back to work kind of helps you felt. And I think you mentioned that at the beginning. Yeah. So it made you. It really helps your mental health going back to work.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Work at the beginning. It did. And then, you know, it spiraled from there because my situation was a bit more severe. But yes, definitely going back to work. The, the onset did help me just to kind of bounce off of what you said there. I think many of us are fed this. This fairy tale of. They place a baby in your arms and you fall in love.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: And Leo there, There's little doves everywhere and happy, and it's. It's fantastic. And for some people, if that may be their story, and that's wonderful. That's not everyone's story. Again, like, it's. Everyone's journey is unique. And we, many of us, myself and like, I call this out to myself on a nearly daily basis that trying to be perfect, trying to give our kids the perfect life, trying to be the perfect parent, trying to be the perfect employee, whatever it is, is. It's setting unrealistic expectations because we're, in effect, telling our kids anything less than perfect is not good enough.
And I know if my, My, my daughters, if they ever want to have children, I don't want them to think I was a perfect parent. Like, I'm not a perfect parent. I. How could I set them up for that sort of failure? Like, Mommy sometimes needs a moment, and I'll tell them, you know, Mommy's not having a very good day today. It's not your fault. Mommy's a little sad today. It took a while for me to get to that point. But being able to be vulnerable with yourself and your. Your kids and to show that perfection isn't the goal, and it shouldn't be the goal with ourselves, and it definitely shouldn't be the goal with our kids, because then again, we're setting them up for failure.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Sure. Absolutely.
I, I do like what you said. Being vulnerable with ourselves. I, I think there's something. I know that sounds a little like, why wouldn't you be vulnerable with yourself? But sometimes it's really hard for you to sit down and think, what do I really feel? Even though it feels like you shouldn't feel that way, but you do. And being vulnerable with yourself I think is the first step. And that's something that I think a lot of people have a really hard time doing because it's like, I don't feel comfortable or I want to go back to work, what's wrong with me?
And when you think about what you should or shouldn't feel, it makes you feel less than and it goes back to that perfection, like trying not to. You don't want to be, you don't want to be perfect. There's no reason to be perfect because you're right. We're setting our kids up, up for failure if we try to do that. So I do want to talk about going back to work after having, after maternity leave. So did you 12 weeks, is that what you were off for both about?
[00:20:21] Speaker B: I think it was 12 or 13 in my first one and I went straight back. My second one, I did take my full leave and that was because I had had the experience of the postpartum depression the first time around. So I had had a plan for how to not make sure, but to make it more likely that I wasn't going to be in that same situation. But in retrospect, for anyone who's like, yeah, I'm ready to go back to work for whatever those reasons are, I would say making a plan, like to take care of yourself, it's okay that you want to go back to work.
You're your own person with your own needs that need to be fed. Just like your kid needs, needs nutrients, you need whatever it is to make you whole. And if that's going back to work, totally support it, but make sure you're supporting yourself. So in going back, if you were someone who was like, oh, I work from 8 to 6 or 8 to 7 daily, I don't take my lunch break and I soldier on through. Think about like, okay, what is your, what is your new life as a parent look like? Yes, going back to work, maybe you take a lunch break, maybe, you know, you have a conversation with your manager and say, I'm excited to come back to work. Let's talk like, I don't know what this is going to look like for me in all honesty, but I know I'm excited to come back. Let's keep those regular check ins, let's talk about what my bandwidth looks like. Let's talk about, you know, what the project needs are that the company needs and let's have that open dialogue. Don't just assume that because you want to go back, you're going back in the same capacity mentally or all of that. It changes.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's the part that's hard is because you're like, I'm going to go back and it's going to be the same and I'm going to feel the same and I'm going to feel the way I did before I went on, and it's so completely different. And do you. Do you work remotely now in your current. And your. Okay, so you're.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: You hybrid.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Oh, you're hybrid.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: I'm hybrid. So I'm more remote than. Than in office. I try to go into the office two days a. It really depends, like, how well did my children sleep last night sort of situation.
But yeah, it's interesting, like being able to get out of the house. I'm not in favor of a total return to the office culture, but there is something very nice about it.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. So I've been remote since 2007. So really all I know, really, for the most part, I mean, for my. The majority of my career, I've been remote. So going back to work for me was, you know, taking my daughter part of daycare was part of it. What part of the deal? I had to take my daughter to daycare, which. That's great. It was totally fine. So I'd get up in the morning, I would take her to daycare when she was three months old, and then I'd come back home and I'd work and I felt normal, and then I'd go pick her up just as if I were going to go and pick her, you know, go into an office. So were you hybrid or remote when you went through. When you had your. Your two daughters or were you in office?
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Yes, I was. I was hybrid for both of them.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: I would say that the.
Again, it was the. It was more leaning towards a remote situation, but it was very much both were on the table.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Do you think it makes a difference when we're remote because we don't leave our house?
You know, I think. And that's part of the mental thing there is like, it might have something to do with leaving the house. Especially if you're in a hybrid situation, it's probably good to go into the office maybe to help you.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: There's totally a component to that. When I gave birth to my first daughter, it was. Even though I was hybrid, I definitely had the preference for being remote and I rolled out of bed, I was in my pajamas. I didn't turn my camera on, on zoom meetings if I didn't have to. And I was able to just powered power into whatever I was doing and I wouldn't notice that the hours were ticking by. That's not. It wasn't for me especially, it was not healthy. Like, if you're going back to work, you're going back because hopefully you want the satisfaction, you want the, the, the energy that comes along with it. You want, you know, all of those feelings. Even if you're working remotely, getting up in the morning and going through your morning routine. I am back in the office. I'm going to shower, I'm going to have breakfast, I'm going to brush my teeth. Like, these are all things. It's finding your new rhythm and routine. But again, if you have that option, whether it's a co working space or an in office, there is something very, very nice about being around other adults.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: Even if those adults have children. You don't have to talk about your children, but you can go in and just be like, in the presence of other adults, having conversations about adult things and work and it's nice. It's a nice shift.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yes. Yes, it is. We are actually. Thank you for, for that. All of that information and, and sharing your story. We have. We're towards the end of time here. We're towards the end of time.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: That's it. We're done.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: But I do have a couple of questions for you to talk about really quickly before we wrap here.
What is one message you would like other moms to hear as they consider going back to work after maternity leave? I think you. We've definitely talked about it earlier. Be. Make a plan.
Make sure that you, you know, understand that this is a new person, that you're a new. It's a new you basically going back to work. Is there anything else that you can think of that would be a good message for moms who are transitioning back into work after maternity leave?
That would be helpful.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: Give yourself grace to figure it all out. Yeah, that. Making a plan and not giving yourself a pass, but just acknowledging that you're gonna take a hot second to figure out what all of this looks like. And it's not a. You don't write down the steps and then do them and it's perfect. That's not life. That's a movie.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: That's. That's an Instagram feed with a nice filter. So it's okay for it to feel shaky. It's okay to want to go back and it's okay for you to not know exactly how that's going to look day to day. And it's okay for it to not feel perfect.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah, I think that's a great message. One other thing, how can we create more, a more supportive environment for moms who are balancing their careers and family life? Is that, I mean, I think just by you leading by example, posting such a vulnerable thing on LinkedIn, I think that's a great start. So other moms can see that it's okay to feel like, like that. Right. Is there anything else? I mean, I definitely think support groups are important, but is there anything else? How, how can we create a more supportive environment?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: I think normalizing the conversation and I don't think it's just moms. Like I'm going to give a hot take here and say it's, it's parents. Because if you also have a non birthing parent who comes back to the office, they may very well be supporting a, a mom who is going back to work or a mom who is dealing with a PMAD that you're, you're looking at an entire support system.
So having the conversation and being open to that is the most important thing in my opinion. And it does give me the icks every now and then. Actually, not every now and then. All the time. When I'm like, should I really put this out into the world on LinkedIn? Is this really who I've become? And I've just gotten to that point where I can be part of normalizing the conversation, of saying like, this is my journey. It is messy. It is so, so messy. And it's chaotic and it's all of the things. And it's also beautiful. If we can normalize having those chats and making it an environment where people feel okay to raise their voices and say, I'm not okay, or hey, I'm ready to go back to the office.
Making it okay to have these conversations, that's what we need to do.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you so much for your story. Your vulnerability, it takes a lot of courage to speak out about this and so I'm really grateful to you and I'm so glad that we connected. Is there for anybody who might want to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Is it LinkedIn? Is it Instagram?
[00:29:09] Speaker B: It is. I'm a LinkedIn girl, so follow me. Follow me on LinkedIn Connect. Reach out. I read all of my messages. I love connecting with new people. I love that you and I connected in this incredible way. And it's just you never know the relationships that are going to come because you're connecting with someone's one story and you never know how it's going to make them feel or putting things out into the world. So, yes, convoluted, long winded way of saying, please connect with me on LinkedIn. I love meeting new people. Everyone's story has value. Wherever you are in your parent journey, whether you're thinking about becoming a parent, you are a parent, you're struggling as a parent, whatever it is, it's great, it's amazing and it's a journey for all of us.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: It is.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: I would love to be along the ride for along for the ride with all of you.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Thank you, Ali, again for joining. And you know, really quickly before we wrap up too, I, I actually was talking about this topic with somebody else probably two weeks ago and I don't believe in coincidences. So, you know, I think that when I saw your post I was like, all right, universe is telling me something. We need to talk about this. So thank you again, listeners. Follow Ali on LinkedIn. Connect with her on LinkedIn. I'll put her information in the show notes. As we say here at the Remote Mon Collective, being different makes a difference. So let's support and inspire each other. Thanks, y'all.
